How many [btc]-addresses can be created for each seed phrase?

[m2017]

Recently I encountered one "amazing phenomenon".

In the Trezor Suit app, I wanted to create a new BTC-address, but I couldn't do it, because the new segwit address was the 11th in a row (i.e. 10 addresses had already been created before). This application issued a message that the limit for creating addresses (of this type) was exceeded. The rest can be created (for example, legacy and other).

This raises the question: How many BTC-addresses (of a certain type) can be created for each seed phrase? Is there really a limit of 10 addresses one type (I don't think so), after which it is necessary to generate a new seed phrase and start over? Or is this related to the trezor devices and their trezor suit app?

Also, another "inconvenient" feature of trezor is that it is impossible to create a new BTC-address if at least 1 sat. has not been received to the previous one. That is, it is impossible to create, for example, 5 different addresses (of the same type) at once, but only as funds are received to the previous one.
As far as I remember, in electrum you can create BTC-addresses without similar restrictions. 

I would appreciate your answers and would like to hear your opinion.

P.S.
I believe this question is more related to bitcoin technical aspects and I am asking this question in this section rather than in the section dedicated to hardware wallets.

[Mia Chloe]

Recently I encountered one "amazing phenomenon".
In the Trezor Suit app, I wanted to create a new BTC-address, but I couldn't do it, because the new segwit address was the 11th in a row (i.e. 10 addresses had already been created before). This application issued a message that the limit for creating addresses (of this type) was exceeded. The rest can be created (for example, legacy and other).

It's called an HD feature. (Hierarchical Deterministic) Wallet. Literally almost every wallet you find now are HD wallets.  They work by hashing your seed phrase to get a master private key and a master public key . Now this master key can be further hashed to get child keys and the corresponding addresses to those child keys come from the hashing of the public keys.

It's mainly a privacy feature. Those addresses are separated into 2 which are the receiving addresses and change addresses. Anytime you hit the receive button on your wallet you are given a receiving address (a new one almost every time). And when you intend to send, those change addresses are used to consolidate funds so they can't be traced easily. So it's like you use different addresses anytime you send or receive coins.

[Zaguru12]

This raises the question: How many BTC-addresses (of a certain type) can be created for each seed phrase? Is there really a limit of 10 addresses one type (I don't think so), after which it is necessary to generate a new seed phrase and start over? Or is this related to the trezor devices and their trezor suit app?

Also, another "inconvenient" feature of trezor is that it is impossible to create a new BTC-address if at least 1 sat. has not been received to the previous one. That is, it is impossible to create, for example, 5 different addresses (of the same type) at once, but only as funds are received to the previous one.
As far as I remember, in electrum you can create BTC-addresses without similar restrictions. 

According to mastering text book there is a possibility of like 4 billion child addresses possible of been generated from one seed phrase as per limit in the HD wallets formats (2³²-1) from each parent extended keys.

This means that for each derivation path there is possibility of billions address to be created, billions in each legacy, nested SegWit, native Segwit address formats.

As per the limit been 10 addresses in your Trezor what my guess is that it is simply a gap limit issue where you might be actually asked to increase this gap limit, for electrum wallet which I use once a gap limit is exceeded there is an indication, so for me this problem is definitely a gap limit situation because addresses to be generated on one of adress type is billions

For the inconveniences of creating address without anything on it, that’s something actually implemented by Trezor in my opinion, empty wallets can be created in multiples

[Amphenomenon]

The Hierarchical Determistic Wallet allows more than that address to be generated. Actually about 2 billion+ public key addresses can be generated from it and another 2 billion+ having a public and private key can also be generated from it.

Trezor wallets allowed you generate only 10 because of user experience, which help in reducing syncing process. More complex wallets like Electrum gives you better leverage to generate more and if you import your seed phrase on it you can more likely generate as many as you would want. Although, the electrum wallet is an hot wallet, I don't know how many addresses other cold wallets aside Trezor can allow users generate.

This link woupbe helpful to you:
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/keys/hd-wallets/derivation-paths/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

[Charles-Tim]

You are use to Electrum. Why not just use Trezor with Electrum? The default gap limit on Electrum is 20. Which means you will see 20 receiving addresses. Also you can decide to increase the gap limit.

But take note that it will be difficult for Electrum to load if the gap limit is increased too much.

You can also see the lists of addresses on Electrum. I mean use Trezor with Electrum instead of using Trezor Suite.

A seed phrase generates unlimited amount of addresses. But the more the addresses, the more the computational power needed which can be frustrating or impossible to achieve or some wallets.

Trezor wallets allowed you generate only 10 because of user experience, which help in reducing syncing process. More complex wallets like Electrum gives you better leverage to generate more and if you import your seed phrase on it you can more likely generate as many as you would want. Although, the electrum wallet is an hot wallet, I don't know how many addresses other cold wallets aside Trezor can allow users generate.

You can use Trezor on Electrum instead of using the hardware wallet for bitcoin on Trezor Suite.

[satscraper]

~

I guess your issues are due the gap-limit.

I don't have Trezor so I'm not familiar with the specific settings in the Trezor Suite app ^{especially regarding increasing the default gap limit}. However if you need access to more addresses consider pairing your Trezor with a different software app that allows you to adjust the gap limit manually ^{Electrum and Sparrow for instance offer such flexibility}.

[hosemary]

Assume that you have a wallet with standard derivaion path of m/44'/0'/0'.
Your addresses are generated at m/44'/0'/0'/x/y in which x is the change index and y is the address index.

The address index can be from 0 to 2³² - 1 and the change index can be either 0 or 1.
Therefore, you can generate 2³³ addresses at the derivation path of m/44'/0'/0'.

You can also change the account index and have more addresses generated from the same seed phrase. For example, you can generate a completely different wallet at the derivation path of m/44'/0'/1'. (The account index can be from 0 to 2 ³² - 1.)

So, with changing the account index, the change index and the address index, you can generate 2^65 addresses from a single seed phrase and you can still generate more addresses with using non-standard derivation paths.

According to mastering text book there is a possibility of like 4 billion child addresses possible of been generated from one seed phrase as per limit in the HD wallets formats (2³²-1) from each parent extended keys.

A single seed phrase can generate much more addresses.
You can generate 4 billion addresses (4,294,967,296 addresses to be accurate) only with changing the address index.

[Mia Chloe]

Assume that you have a wallet with standard derivaion path of m/44'/0'/0'.
Your addresses are generated at m/44'/0'/0'/x/y in which x is the change index and y is the address index.

Technically speaking, there isnt actually a limit to the number of Bitcoin addresses of any type that can be derived from a single seed phrase. The HD wallet structure with a standard like BIP32 allows for the generation of a very large number of unique keys and addresses from a single root seed.

I believe the limit OP is encountering is not a fundamental limitation of Bitcoin or HD wallets. Instead it's a Gap limit by Trezor.

To efficiently scan for used addresses when you restore a wallet or kinda resync , most wallets usually have a gap limit , which means the wallet will generate and check a certain number of consecutive unused addresses. If it encounters a number of unused addresses exceeding this limit  it assumes there are no more used addresses in that branch of the derivation path and stops scanning.

[Charles-Tim]

I believe the limit OP is encountering is not a fundamental limitation of Bitcoin or HD wallets. Instead it's a Gap limit by Trezor.

The issue is the gap limit on Trezor Suite. You can use Trezor hardware wallet on other software wallet that is supporting it. A good example of wallet that you can use Trezor hardware wallet is Electrum.

Having addresses above certain gap limit is kind of frustrating. I remember a time I use Iancoleman to generate 50000 addresses from a seed phrase, it took me almost 2 hours.

[LoyceV]

I've never used Trezor Suite, but it sounds like an annoying limitation. At least Electrum allows you to create many new addresses.
There are different limits at play here: Trezor doesn't want you to create too many empty addresses, as each of them needs to be checked for a balance when you connect to their server. Electrum isn't that picky, but with thousands (or tens of thousands) of addresses, syncing is going to take forever.
Your seed phrase on the other hand can create more addresses than you'll ever use.

I suggest to just use Electrum with your hardware wallet

[Stalker22]

I ran into the same problem with Trezor Suite.  Annoyingly, there was no way to make it generate more addresses beyond the gap limit.  I guess the developers figured most folks wouldnt need more than 20 unused addresses or something. I get why they want clean standardized defaults. But a little customization would be nice! The only solution is to try a different wallet app with your Trezor.  Electrum lets you tweak the gap limit, so that could work. 

[nc50lc]

I ran into the same problem with Trezor Suite.  Annoyingly, there was no way to make it generate more addresses beyond the gap limit.

The only workaround there is to send bitcoins that you'll be spending on your other transaction (just don't use dust) to your last address
and it will let you generate another batch beyond that address.
(e.g. if using an unused new account: m/84'/0'/0'/0/19)

But yeah, just use Electrum/Sparrow if generating 20 more unused address is a must.

Also, another "inconvenient" feature of trezor is that it is impossible to create a new BTC-address if at least 1 sat. has not been received to the previous one. That is, it is impossible to create, for example, 5 different addresses (of the same type) at once, but only as funds are received to the previous one.

Do you mean "account" in this part?

[pooya87]

I believe this question is more related to bitcoin technical aspects and I am asking this question in this section rather than in the section dedicated to hardware wallets.

Mnemonic algorithms like BIP-39 are essentially a Key Derivation Function[1] themselves (BIP39 uses PBKDF2 under the hood as well) and KDFs don't really have a limit on how many keys they can generate. You should be able to generate an unlimited number of them as long as you can change the inputs of the KDF and in case of BIP-39, you can do that since it takes 2 inputs: the mnemonic and the passphrase (the extended words).

On top of that you have the derivation path which has some limitations like the depth but by changing the index and the path itself you can generate virtually unlimited number of keys. That is: m/0, m/1, m/2, ... m/0/0, m/0/1, ..., m/0/2, ..., m/1/0, m/1/1, m/1/2, ..., m/0/0/0, m/0/0/1, ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_derivation_function

[Forsyth Jones]

I didn't know about this gap-limit in Trezor Suite, maybe I used it little to receive on addresses, since I use my full node bitcoin core more to receive coins.
This is frustrating, and apparently, most native hardware wallet software faces this problem, the definitive solution is to use Bitcoin Core in conjunction with electrum (electrum server like electrs for greater privacy), with your hardware wallet connected to electrum or sparrow.

[Dailyscript]

I believe this question is more related to bitcoin technical aspects and I am asking this question in this section rather than in the section dedicated to hardware wallets.

Mnemonic algorithms like BIP-39 are essentially a Key Derivation Function[1] themselves (BIP39 uses PBKDF2 under the hood as well) and KDFs don't really have a limit on how many keys they can generate. You should be able to generate an unlimited number of them as long as you can change the inputs of the KDF and in case of BIP-39, you can do that since it takes 2 inputs: the mnemonic and the passphrase (the extended words).

On top of that you have the derivation path which has some limitations like the depth but by changing the index and the path itself you can generate virtually unlimited number of keys. That is: m/0, m/1, m/2, ... m/0/0, m/0/1, ..., m/0/2, ..., m/1/0, m/1/1, m/1/2, ..., m/0/0/0, m/0/0/1, ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_derivation_function

I didn’t realize just how much the system can vary not just with the seed phrase itself, but also how many different directions you can go. This explains better to the OP why wallets can support so many accounts or addresses from a single seed.

Quick one though, in practice, do you think changing the passphrase is more secure than just relying on deep path branching? For example if someone brute-forces a seed, is a strong passphrase still a decent second line of security?

I feel if somene steals your seed phrase they cant access your wallets without the correct passphrase. It is like a second layer of protection.

[philipma1957]

I ran into the same problem with Trezor Suite.  Annoyingly, there was no way to make it generate more addresses beyond the gap limit.  I guess the developers figured most folks wouldnt need more than 20 unused addresses or something. I get why they want clean standardized defaults. But a little customization would be nice! The only solution is to try a different wallet app with your Trezor.  Electrum lets you tweak the gap limit, so that could work. 

But you can add more than one wallet to the trezor.

Let’s say you have a family of five.

Btc wallet
 1)pop
2) mom
3) oldest kid
4) middle kid
5) baby

And three styles of btc.

Bc
3xx
1 legacy

So if you make five wallets of each and 20 addresses each

That is 3 x 5 x 10 or  150.

And I do not know what the limit of wallets for each of the three types.

So I know you can do 7 for all three as I had a lot of clients with different wallets on my trezor.

I think the issue is not a big deal if you just make multiple wallets.

Why not come back and let us know the max wallets per BTC style.
Legacy.           1 bla bla
Legacy segwit 3 bla bla


I could check later but I have a feeling that I could make way more by making tons of wallets on the same trezor.

[Forsyth Jones]

.
Quick one though, in practice, do you think changing the passphrase is more secure than just relying on deep path branching? For example if someone brute-forces a seed, is a strong passphrase still a decent second line of security?

I feel if somene steals your seed phrase they cant access your wallets without the correct passphrase. It is like a second layer of protection.

Changing your passphrase is more secure, because a passphrase is like a custom additional word for your seed phrase.

A strong passphrase (e.g. 6-8 random words or a complex combination of letters, numbers and characters) is resistant to brute force attacks.

Protecting your funds in a seed with a custom derivation path will only slow down the attacker, but it will take less time to be discovered, so I wouldn't use a derivation path to hide my funds. Derivation paths serve another purpose, while a passphrase is designed to protect your funds in a hidden wallet, where the passphrase acts as a second authentication factor in combination with your seed phrase.

Without the passphrase, no one would get to your funds (or even be detected, since there is no "wrong"passphrase). Therefore, it's extremely important to know that you cannot lose your seed phrase or passphrase, otherwise your funds would be lost in limbo permanently.

Use it wisely and everything will be fine.

For more details about BIP39 seed phrase and passphrase, please visit the articles below:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Seed_phrase

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/keys/hd-wallets/mnemonic-seed/

https://blog.trezor.io/10-common-faqs-around-passphrases-in-trezor-wallets-07f30c7e6a91

[m2017]

But you can add more than one wallet to the trezor.

Let’s say you have a family of five.

Btc wallet
 1)pop
2) mom
3) oldest kid
4) middle kid
5) baby

But each family member will have their own seed phrase. When generating a new seed phrase, of course, you can create millions of BTC-wallets, but this creates a problem due to the increase in the number of seed phrases (all this needs to be saved).

The point is to be able to create the maximum number of addresses with one seed phrase.

And three styles of btc.

Bc
3xx
1 legacy

Of course, there are different types of btc that can be used, which will increase the limit of available addresses. But, for example, in signature campaigns, the segwit type is used and with frequent changes of campaigns, for example, this limit will be quickly exhausted.

If we also take into account the undesirability of reusing the same address, then the limit in BTC-addresses will still be quickly exhausted.

So if you make five wallets of each and 20 addresses each

That is 3 x 5 x 10 or  150.

These are theoretical figures, in practice, it will be less. At least because, for example, old types of addresses (legacy) are used less often, which means you will not be able to use it.

I could check later but I have a feeling that I could make way more by making tons of wallets on the same trezor.

I'm not sure about the tons of wallets, but there is 1 way to increase the limit that I found. This is the presence of a standard and hidden wallet, which allows you to increase the number of wallets by 2 times. You can switch between this types.

[pooya87]

Quick one though, in practice, do you think changing the passphrase is more secure than just relying on deep path branching? For example if someone brute-forces a seed, is a strong passphrase still a decent second line of security?

I feel if somene steals your seed phrase they cant access your wallets without the correct passphrase. It is like a second layer of protection.

Both could provide similar additional-security depending on the permutations the attacker has to go through. For example if you set the derivation path to something crazy like m/43215'/207241803/98465413'/2241/95124059 that is a huge search-space (at least 4.2 billion ^ 5 = 1.46 e+48 assuming the attacker knows the depth is 5) which is impossible to brute force.

But the problem with derivation path, is that sometimes wallets don't really let you choose it. They just use the default ones like m/44'/0'/0' but they let you add that extra passphrase to extend your mnemonic. In other words using the passphrase is more convenient than the derivation path because it is more "standard" way of doing things.
And if a strong enough passphrase is used, it can provide that second layer of security that is strong enough that cannot be broken by brute force.

[Forsyth Jones]

But each family member will have their own seed phrase. When generating a new seed phrase, of course, you can create millions of BTC-wallets, but this creates a problem due to the increase in the number of seed phrases (all this needs to be saved).

The point is to be able to create the maximum number of addresses with one seed phrase.

If you haven't read it, I recommend visiting my thread about BIP-85, a smart way to unify backups by storing multiple mnemonics derived from a single seed (master) that solves this problem.

Of course, there are different types of btc that can be used, which will increase the limit of available addresses. But, for example, in signature campaigns, the segwit type is used and with frequent changes of campaigns, for example, this limit will be quickly exhausted.

If we also take into account the undesirability of reusing the same address, then the limit in BTC-addresses will still be quickly exhausted.

What are you concerned about? Are you referring to the "limit" of addresses that Trezor Suite can reach - gap_limit or are you actually concerned about the end of addresses generated by an extended key?